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| Author: | dzsmith [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Plane restoration advice |
I'm a noobie at setting up and using a plane. I found an old rusty Stanley Defiance plane, I believe it is a #4 made between 1945 and 1962. The blade was concave, I spent many hours geting it flat. I put a main bevel of 25 deg on it. The plane does not have a frog, the blade sits against the throat and two pillars. It does not have a lateral adjustment lever. Should I grind the chipbreaker to sit against the blade on the bevel? Should I just buy a decent smoothing plane and shelve this? Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Dan |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
The chipbreaker sits on the other side of the blade, opposite to the side of the bevel. It should seat snugly with no gaps between itself and the flat side of the blade. Presumably you have the screw that fits into the chipbreaker. It should be set to within 1 mm of the blades edge and less than half that if you want to deal with wood that is prone to tear out. I'm not familiar with that Plane. It looks like it was one of the budget models. Get the blade truly sharp and give it a go. It just might be a decent performer. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Michael.N. wrote: The chipbreaker sits on the other side of the blade, opposite to the side of the bevel. It should seat snugly with no gaps between itself and the flat side of the blade. Presumably you have the screw that fits into the chipbreaker. It should be set to within 1 mm of the blades edge and less than half that if you want to deal with wood that is prone to tear out. I'm not familiar with that Plane. It looks like it was one of the budget models. Get the blade truly sharp and give it a go. It just might be a decent performer. Thanks, Michael, Still not sure about the chipbreaker. Some web images show it on top of the blade. I'll play around with it. I have found nothing on the web about this particular plane including how the parts go together. Dan |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Oh, now I get it. The bevel is on the bottom side of the plane. It was facing the top before I disassembled it. Everything has a proper fit now. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Hi Dan, The lack of a movable frog means you won't be able to easily adjust the opening at the throat. Most people adjust it to where they like it and then leave it, so this might not be a big deal. When you find a better model you can grind a slight curve into the blade and use it as a scrub plane. As Michael N. said, sharpen it up and give it a go - it might work just fine. |
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| Author: | Bri [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
The defiance was initially offered in the late 1800's, and reintroduced post war as line of budget tools The lack of lateral adjustment, for me anyway, makes this an undesirable plane. The cast in frog does not appear to support the blade very well and could end up chattering on hard and figured woods. As suggested it may work well with a good sharp iron. Make sure the chipbreaker fits tight to the blade and the blade fits tight to the ramp in the throat. As for the bevel, typically the low angle planes are bevel up. B |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
The plane works well, at least on a board edge. Took a while of tapping the iron to get the lateral adjustment just right. I'll try it on some Sitka to see how it works as a smoothing plane. At least I have a better understanding of what to look for in a plane before I buy one. Thanks guys! Dan |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
I think you'll probably want a different plane for critical work, but this one looks like it's already provided some great experience. My reason for saying that is that the mouth opening looks very wide, and since you can't adjust the frog, it is what it is. The second is what someone else mentioned---the minimal frog to blade contact. The more you have, the more rocksteady it is. Great job on getting it cutting. It also looks extremely clean. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Seems like an awful lot of work to have to go through to restore a stinkin plane when those of us with thickness sanders need only push the "on" button.....   Yeah, yeah I'll go stifle myself.....  PS: There is a currently running thread about relics.... seems appropriate for this thread too.....
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Undoubtedly an even better way is to sit in a recliner, conveyor belt and an extra long push stick for that 'on' button. 5 or 6 Big Macs in the other hand. Bag or two of popcorn.   Who needs a hernia? |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
I have a lot of experience with planes. Whether you buy a brand spankin' new one or find an old one it will still require considerable work. You must spend time with them, learning to refine it's use. Sharpening is a major hurdle, an art form in itself. Look at your board, it isn't square because your blade isn't square. The surface you define on your blade is the surface you inscribe on wood. Spend lots of time practicing on chunks of scrap. I can see that you haven't sharpened your blade, as evident by the tears on your shavings. Your blade is not sharp. The burr is scratching "shavings" off, not actually cutting. The surface should be as smooth as glass. That includes endgrain. Endgrain that you can cut like glass without a shooting board is what your after. Don't listen to David Charlesworth regarding back bevels and tricks. You want a full blade. Why does this matter? Think about the braces inside a guitar: they're stiffer when tall and thick. If you reduce the thickness of a blade it gets significantly weaker. Bevels are a bad idea. I don't care what anyone says I've done both and seen with thine own eyes. Unless you really want to devote a significant amount of time learning the intricacies of a planes and the mountain of information behind them just get a thickness sander. It took me a decade to figure it all out. No kidding. I can now plane with even a chisel. Btw a plane is jig to hold a chisel at it's most fundamental level. I'm not implying it's voodoo but there's real work involved, endless hours of it. Don't under estimate the plane and all it's trappings. I know I said before that they were easy. They are with a twelve years of experience with them. I was wrong to suggest they're easy because they're not. My experience has greatly skewed my outlook. I thought I could describe it in a single post but I was emphatically wrong, I could write a whole book about it. There's also the expense. I have thousands of dollars tied up in planes and the associated junk that goes with them. I easily have thousands of dollars in stones that I use every time I sharpen. To understand you need to produce a single, mirror bright blade that shines like nothing you've ever seen. If I thought it were possible to show you a picture of it I would but you will not be able to see the microscopic level of detail that exists, or how the light shines from it in a terrifyingly sharp and square fashion. Think you'll just rub it on the stone real quick, think again. Not the first time, or the thousandth, in time yes. There's no mystery but you must spend the time. There's also the element of money. One plane leads to two plane leads to... You will find a simple use for scores of planes. My post is not to discourage but rather to paint a realistic picture for you. I apologize for saying what I did in the other post. I see now that was an error. -j |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Well if you want to reduce the amount of work (or the learning process) go out and buy a LN, Veritas, Clifton or a woodriver. After that there is very little to know. Sharpening (you need it anyway), setting a chipbreaker. Not much else. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
You don't have to be producing micron thin shavings the full width of the glistening blade to be happy with your technique. As long as the plane gets the wood to where it needs to be, enjoy the experience. In time you will sharpen your technique. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
One of my favorite movie lines - "There'll be no butter in hell!" Cold Comfort Farm. I'm not sure why, but this is all starting to make me think of it. A back-bevelled, "ruler-trick" shaving. The ruler trick puts on 1/2 a degree of back bevel. I'm not a math guru, but that has to be less than a thousandth of an inch you're taking off the thickness of that .125" thick blade. I think the key phrase is having realistic expectations for our tools. We've seen that hand tools and power tools can both be productive assets. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Thanks for the encouragement gentlemen! I don't have any stones yet, so I only took the polish up to 1000 grit with wet or dry paper. I polished the right side of the plane. Since the lateral adjustment is such a pain, I figure once I get the blade really sharp I'll set it up as a dedicated jointer on a shooting board. I'll still give smoothing a go to convince myself to buy a suitable plane. Dan |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
There is no magic needed to learn to plane. You have already shown you are a fast learner. You can make even a cheap plane do excellent work, but it is a bit easier to make a better plane do it. Fool around with that plane a bit, then pick up a Stanley Bailey or Bedrock, a Sargent, or a Millers Falls plane of the size you want. They are cheap and plentiful, so find one without a lot of rust and with good wood. Put an hour into messing with it and you will love the result. You don't need an arsenal - a good block plane like a 60-1/2 low angle, and a couple of bench planes like a #3 or 4 and a #5, and you are off to the races. Don't be discouraged by the those that make a cult out of it. Ed |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Plane restoration advice |
Patrick Leach sells old planes and other vintage hand tools. His tool list is fun to peruse monthly and he has collector and worker tools for sale. I've bought several from him and they were exactly as described. Fair prices too. For a good explanation of what he does and detailed information on lots of different vintage planes check out his Blood&Gore site: http://www.supertool.com/stanleybg/stan0.htm |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Jimmyjames, if I might take issue with your Pontifcation on the ruler trick, (if not your inconsistency) Quote: Don't listen to David Charlesworth regarding back bevels and tricks. You want a full blade. Why does this matter? Think about the braces inside a guitar: they're stiffer when tall and thick. If you reduce the thickness of a blade it gets significantly weaker. Bevels are a bad idea. I don't care what anyone says I've done both and seen with thine own eyes. Back beveling (which the Charlesworth ruler trick does) actually slightly increases the stiffness of the metal supporting the blade edge, as it makes the angle less acute. Also not having to flatten the whole of the back keeps the blade slightly thicker. Which is what you're looking for - you mentioned stiffness/more metal/strength? |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Colin, I found when I did the ruler trick that my blade vibrated and consequently "hopped" in the cut leaving a surface that was not flat. Also, setting a jig angle or freehand be doing after the first sharpen is far more difficult. Flattening the back completely works much better for me. Yes it takes longer but results in easier sharpening in the long run. -j |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
That may be your preference, which you are, of course, perfectly entitled to. But please, don't try to justify it with engineering gobbledegook. |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Plane restoration advice |
Colin, I don't mean to sound "engineeringly gooblygookish" it's just the way I think. -j |
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